COOPER JOSLIN
Hi, this is Cooper Joslin, my pronouns are they/them, and I'm here with Roberta today. If you could please state your full name and pronouns and if I have permission to record this interview.
ROBERTA D'CAMP
My full name is Roberta D'Camp. My pronouns are she, her, and yes you have permission to record the interview.
COOPER JOSLIN
Awesome, Thank you so much. So I was thinking we could just kind of start at the beginning as far back as you want to go and then we'll move our way forward if you want. But kind of my like starting question in all of these interviews has been basically just when and where were you born?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
I was born in Flint, Michigan in 1994.
ROBERTA D'CAMP
I was born in a different hospital than my brother and sister because the insurance changed and the hospital that I would have been born in was on fire when I was being born. Because the insurance changed.
COOPER JOSLIN
That is a full story I'm gonna have to look up later because that sounds absolutely fascinating. I'm glad you were not born in a burning building.
ROBERTA D'CAMP
I believe that was the story. I'll have to double check with my mom, but she's told me that before.
COOPER JOSLIN
I just want more details, to be honest. So when did you find that out? Was that like a, you know, what was the circumstance of you finding that out?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well, I don't remember. I think It just kind of came up randomly. I was probably asked her like When I was born But I know they mentioned it a few times before
COOPER JOSLIN
Well, it's fascinating. So you have mentioned you have two siblings, right? Brother and sister, you said?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Yeah, I'm the youngest.
COOPER JOSLIN
Oh, cool. What was it like growing up? Did you grow up in Michigan?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well, I actually grew up mainly in Iowa, on the easternmost part of Iowa, the Quad Cities, which is a very, it's like, basically like 12 towns all stuck together, bisected by the Mississippi River. It's rather an unusual place, in my opinion. I had a, I would say I had a happy childhood. My brother and sister were very close with me. We had our own sort of imaginary world. We would play all kinds of different games.
We used to draw little books together. Even when I was too young to write, I had my sister dictate. I dictated a story to my sister that she made into a little picture book called The Leech That Ate a Meatball. I don't know why I wanted that to be my story, but that's what I asked her to write for me.
COOPER JOSLIN
That's so cool. Do you remember what it was about?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Yeah, well, we still have it. It was about a leech that really wanted to eat a meatball, but his parents said, no, it's too dangerous. You can't go out and eat a meatball. But he went out anyway. And then he almost got eaten by a shark. But a mermaid turned the shark into a meatball, so he ate it. And then his parents are really mad because he went out. And the moral of the story is to obey your parents, which is kind of funny.
COOPER JOSLIN
I love that. What? So I know you're a writer, correct?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well, I got, I'm getting back into writing. I don't know if I would call myself a writer. But my career is, I kind of just call myself a science hobo. So the thing about biology is it's hard to get a permanent job and you have to build, I was encouraged to build up experience by using seasonal jobs. So I've been doing that for the past, honestly, like I've been moving around constantly since the past six years And I've done lots of different jobs in lots of different places. So when I met you guys, I was doing an internship in Maryland. And so yeah, I'm actually no longer there. I'm currently back in Iowa. But I do love writing.
COOPER JOSLIN
Yeah it seems like this might be a like you know listening to your original, like, this leech wanting to eat a meatball story, that is like, it reminds me of a lot of my friends. I had a lot of like marine bio friends in college and they were always like, oh when I was a kid I loved this. And is that kind of what drew you to biology?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well, oddly enough, I can remember the exact spark because I can be a very obsessive person. And throughout my life I've had these times where I got really, really obsessed with like some very specific animal or something. And when I was in first grade my dad was playing the video game The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and it has a giant amoeba in it at one point. And my dad was like, those are real. Amoebas are real. And it blew my mind and I got obsessed with amoebas and I checked out this amoeba book at the library. So much that the librarian gave it to me because no one else ever checked out the amoeba book. And we would go up on these trips to Minnesota, northern Minnesota. I think I got really enamored with the fish and well the leeches and the mussels. And my mother's side is from the south so we'd go to the south and we'd see the marine life like you know horseshoe crabs and things like that. So I think I just fell in love with it by being exposed to it.
COOPER JOSLIN
That's so cool. I'm curious what part of the South?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
My mother is from Louisiana. We would visit my my mamaw as we called her in Mississippi quite often around Christmas time though.
COOPER JOSLIN
Very cool. What were holidays like for you? Did you have like a very close family? Was it more of a like yearly visit situation? What was the vibe?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
My family I would say was very close, especially my father's side. So my grandfather who passed away quite recently was a very musical man. He had a family band, a D'Camp family band. And so a lot of times our holidays, our reunions were not just reunions, but were also concerts. So especially on the 4th of July, we would play a lot of marches and things like that. On Labor Day, I think, that was in the, we would get together. We had this ancient pep band book from like the 60s or 70s that was full of pop music, you know, but it was like music from back then. So we would sometimes just for fun play that stuff too. But yeah, I'd say growing up, I felt that we were a very tight knit sort of family.
COOPER JOSLIN
That's so cool. I love, I also grew up with music. My dad was a musician. So like, you know, that's definitely something I can relate to, that feeling. Did you play anything? Did you sing? What was your...
ROBERTA D'CAMP
I played the trumpet. It was almost kind of like a rite of passage to me. You know, when you were young, you would, the family band would be playing, and you would be playing with the other kids at the playground or something. But you knew that you would eventually get an instrument, and you would eventually be in the band. And I think everyone sort of looked forward to that. But my mom taught me piano, so that's my favorite instrument. I'm very fond of the piano.
COOPER JOSLIN
Cool. Do you still play?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Yeah, yeah I still play. I like ragtime. I like Scott Joplin.
COOPER JOSLIN
That's so cool. I've always wanted to learn piano. My parents were always like, you've got long fingers, you should do it. And I just, I picked up other instruments, but I'm dying to go back to piano, so I'll take this as my hint that it's my time for that. So what I, so one of the questions I've been asking these interviews is, what is your first memory of thinking about gender? Do you have a moment like that?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well, I know that when I was a kid, I think, you know, I was struck by the fact that, you know, when I first saw a girl's genitals, you know, I knew that they were different than mine. I don't think, I know as a very young child, I know I sometimes wanted, I liked to dress up in a princess costume, I remember. Although I like to dress up in other costumes too. And I remember I wanted to play with my sister's toys. Of course, in addition to my Star Wars and dinosaur toys. Toys. I think in, I don't know, I became, frankly, I think I grew up and like a lot of kids I grew up to be very, you know, against, I think I was a little bit bigoted when I was younger, you know. I didn't like girls, you know. I remember the first time I heard someone talking about trans people. I didn't, the way it was on the bus and the way he explained it to me was like, hey did you hear that there was a boy who just he just turned into a girl. And the way he talked about it it almost made it sound like you know it was some weird medical like he just got struck by some ray and slowly he turned into a girl. And I think when I was a little older in high school there were times where I would think to myself that if I had been born a girl I thought I would have been a very pretty girl.
COOPER JOSLIN
Yeah. So I guess like moving forward a little bit, what was high school like for you?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well, when I was in high school, I was very, I think I was very snooty and I feel like I was a very arrogant kid. I thought I was very, very intelligent. And I was very distrustful of other people. I think I had just a couple friends that, you know, I would see these other kids and now I'd look back and I'm like, all of those kids seem like they were actually really nice. You know there was nothing wrong with them. I just I think I saw how friendly they were with other kids and I was like, oh that's the popular kid, you know, not like me. I was in Boy Scouts and I really enjoyed that generally. We went on all kinds of outdoor adventures. And our band, we had a fun band, too. Band was a good time. We had a huge, huge high school band with like 200-something people. We had to split into four bands. But at times it was a bit lonely I think. I had a lot of trouble paying attention. I remember it was it was a little bit frustrating and I also developed in my close to the end of my junior year I believe I developed a very severe chronic pain in my left foot that made it very very difficult to walk that I would have for six more years after that.
COOPER JOSLIN
Wow, did you ever find out what that was? Like was that something that had a resolution?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Yeah, we finally, after a very long time, we identified it as something called Tarsal Tunnel Syndrome. Not unlike Carpal Tunnel syndrome. It was sort of an entrapped nerve that was shifted out of position.
COOPER JOSLIN
I feel like that's an interesting point. Like that's something that's not really discussed a whole lot you know about how like chronic illness or chronic pain can like you know impact your life. I grew up with the, I grew up believing I had epilepsy And I found out later that was a misdiagnosis and I just had like ten years of like believing I was epileptic. So stuff like that you know, it impacts you you know.
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Very much, yes.
I would say in general scientists tend to be open-minded with trans people, from my experience.
COOPER JOSLIN
Would you say that had like a big impact on that time of your life?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Extremely major. I was actually, I started kind of writing some memoirs about it. It, I mean, every single thing I did, I had to think very carefully about. In college, when I went to class, I had to think carefully about, do I need to carry these books in my backpack because they're very heavy, you know. And you know, if there was ever a time I needed to stop by, let's say you had to stop by, you know, the little store they had to get a snack, you know, that you wanted to get a study snack. I had to really think carefully and calculate like, can I make it there? Can I make it back from there? Because at times the pain was so severe. If I walked too much, I just couldn't walk anymore. I would just collapse. It made it so that it changed my you know my career. I felt for a long time I wanted to do these outdoor things I'd grown up doing. I wanted to get in the field biology and I knew that it I didn't know if that was something I could do. So it permeated every single second of my life for those six years.
COOPER JOSLIN
I'm sorry to hear that. I know that's really difficult. So this went in like through your college years I take it right?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Yeah I actually got the surgery to fix it almost exactly the time I graduated.
COOPER JOSLIN
Nice, congrats. Where did you go to college? And what exactly did you study? It sounds like biology but is there like a subsect of that?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
It was like 2012 to 2017, University of Northern Iowa. I studied biology. It took me a little while to figure out. I really I tried some writing stuff. I you know honestly I didn't have much luck with it I think. But I always I don't think I truly understood what the career was like of biology. You know I just knew that I liked it. I took, I loved paleontology. I really loved paleontology. I love marine biology but I also like insects and bird roots. I mean I love almost everything.
COOPER JOSLIN
That's so cool. I love like general interest in science is something I definitely I have as well. But actually I had the opposite path. I started in biochemistry in college and I was an English major at the end. So what has the career in biology been like for you? Because you had mentioned, you know, that wasn't something you had. You had a lot of knowledge of like at the time what the actual like day-to-day of it was. What is it that you do now and what is your day-to-day?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
It's been sometimes a difficult journey. It's had highs and lows. The thing is, biology is very competitive and science is competitive and it can be very gatekeeping. And I found it's very hard to... It's a long, long and winding road. And I have been trying different things. You know, I thought I wanted to do muscle conservation for a while and I still love it, but my attempts at diving didn't go very well because of my ears. But there have been some just amazing things. And I really would say that I've seen some things that not many people have seen. Like there's this bird called a king rail that's very, very secretive and it does not like to be seen by people. And we had a job in this marsh where we were studying those, and tons of venomous snakes in there too. At least one encounter a day, but the most we ever had was 15 in a single day once Like you'd come you'd be walking through the marsh and there'd be one sitting there and it would open its mouth to warn you that it was venomous And then you just kind of stand there and it would slither off. But I saw king whale chicks, I saw chicks of American bitterns. They scared the shit out of me because they made velociraptor sounds and I didn't know where they were coming from and I just like what the hell is that growling at me and it's just like a little baby bird that just looks pissed off. Yeah there's been a lot of amazing things. I feel like I've seen a lot of amazing things. The money is a problem. Big problem. Housing. I mean, you move too much and you don't get a sense of community. It's very sad. It's hard to make friends. So I'm hoping to pivot into ecological restoration because I think I could get a permanent job in that. My transition has affected my career prospects because, well, I'm not going to, I'm not going, I'm not going to go to a place like Texas at this point. I just think it's not safe. And it just so happens places like Texas have many, many jobs in wildlife biology. So it's changed the equation a bit.
COOPER JOSLIN
Yeah, I can imagine that's difficult. A lot of my friends who are in bio, I was in school in Florida, so they would always like end up in the Everglades or something. And I know I can't go to the bathroom in Florida right now. So I can't imagine that's easy. You had mentioned, you know, science is, it can be kind of gatekeepy. How has your transition, you know, impacted that? Have you, are you comfortable talking about any experiences you've had that would be curious.
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well I would say in general scientists tend to be open-minded with trans people from my experience. Although what I have felt is that the thing that frustrates me is that I've worked for corporations before, for example doing environmental consulting work, And I felt like they were happy that I was working for them. There was just a little bit of like, I'm glad that you're here, you know, to do this hard work. And when I was doing like my internship, for example, I felt like instead the attitude is, you should be glad you're working for me. Like you should be privileged you're working for me, and that I'm giving this to you. So there just tends to be like this sort of expectation that because you're a scientist, because you're ambitious, that you have to be willing to mistreat yourself. And that you have to, you know, I've just found that there can sometimes be a neglect of things like safety or just general well-being in science in the very ambitious prestigious corners of it, which yeah it's it can be unsettling. I've had experiences with transphobia before when I worked for the Utah DNR in particular. Oddly enough, I found people who see themselves being allies can sometimes, it's like they don't understand that our safety concerns are not a trifling matter, you know, like it's not that we're not brave enough, you know. It's not that we're like not living our truth, you know. It's just that we don't want to be, we don't wanna be treated like shit and we don't wanna be hate crimed, you know. And I felt like there were times where like in Utah, I didn't want to present female because I wasn't ready, I wasn't confident of it at that point. And we were dealing with lots of grumpy old boater people who were always angry anyway at us because of the kind of work we did. We would basically invasive species inspections, which can be vacation ruining, you know, because it's like, okay, well, your boat, you know, let's say it's contaminated and we can't decontaminate it, that means you can't go on your next vacation because you'll transport invasive species. So yeah, I mean we deal with angry people And I just didn't want to have me being trans on top of that, because that was early in my transition. And that was, you know, this person that saw themself as an ally saw that as being a form of cowardice in a sense. And I feel like there have been times like that of people just not really listening to what I have to say as a trans person and feeling like they know better even though they're trying to be helpful. I think those are some of the experiences with transphobia that have stuck with me quite a lot.
COOPER JOSLIN
I'm sorry. That is so not fun. I definitely know what you're talking about too, the way of like, you know, sometimes you don't want to be like seen as trans or, you know, sometimes it's just easier and it sucks that we have to make that decision to be ourselves or not be harassed. When did you begin realizing that you wanted to transition?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
So it was a very gradual thing for me. I started to wear women's clothing in 2015.
Once I started coming out that's when I realized I don't ever want to stop doing this. This is what I want to do all the time.
ROBERTA D'CAMP
The thing is, I don't really know why I started. The only thing I can say is that I think I was very experimentally minded at that time. I was away from my home. I was, you know, free. And I just kind of had this feeling like, I just want to buy a nightgown. I thought it would be nice to sleep in and comfortable and so I did and that's the first time I felt gender euphoria. I felt so happy very very much to be wearing those clothes. I think I used it as well as a way to escape the pain that I was in all the time, you know. And I think I kept it in the closet for quite some time. I slowly came out to my friends and told them that I, you know, I described myself as a cross-dresser at that time. And there were even some friends that wouldn't mind me cross-dressing when I was hanging out with them. I would have dreams about it too. I would have dreams about wearing women's clothing or looking like a woman and especially looking like a woman and being around my friends and them accepting me and living out in the world and I would wake up and I would miss it, you know. So I gradually just, I think the more I kind of crept out of my house, you know, and was among the world, I think. And I had experiences of people referring to me with female pronouns, not necessarily because I asked, but because they just assumed that I would like that. And I just, sometimes I would just ask people to call me a girl to see what it would feel like and I realized that it didn't take that long. I mean I was in the closet for quite a few years. Once I started coming out that's when I realized I don't ever want to stop doing this. This is what I want to do all the time. So you know, the thing I struggled with was the dominant narrative is that trans people, we feel like women, or trans women I mean, we feel like women inside, you know. Or they say we feel like a woman trapped in a man's body. And I just, I would look at myself and I'm like, I don't know if I feel like a woman inside. I don't know if I feel a woman in me. I was guided by the very, very distinct and strong feelings that I had of euphoria, dysphoria, of like, I know that when I'm wearing female clothes I feel very very happy. I know that. Yeah I mean those I think if a cisgender person felt those feelings they were totally instantly understand why we exist you know.
COOPER JOSLIN
Yeah I think if we could bottle the sensation of euphoria, like gender euphoria, not only would we all instantly be millionaires but like they would understand. And I know it's a hard thing to put into words, but what would you describe your gender euphoria as like, how does that feel for you?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
I always feel like it is a very light feeling. It is, you know, a loose and relaxed feeling. I find that depression often feels like a tightness and a constriction of some kind. You know, like your organs are literally being squeezed by something. And the gender euphoria feels like the opposite of that. It feels like a release. It feels like you're, I mean it feels a little bit like the way you feel when you're on vacation. I don't know. It's like you feel just relaxed and yeah, It's just like a very light feeling.
COOPER JOSLIN
I love that. That's so sweet and so good and so pure and such a good explanation for my euphoria as well. That's cute. So I know you've moved around quite a bit. You had described yourself to me as a nomad in the past. Do you want to talk a little bit about your, what's bringing you to all of these places and maybe some of the places that you've been and just what it's been like?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well I can go through them. So the first place I went was China. And the reason I went to China was because I started abroad in Korea and I started dating this Chinese exchange student I met there. I went there for her and I taught English with a company that quickly collapsed after I left, which was a big, big deal in China when that happened. And I was in Shanghai, a big city like I hadn't seen before. I felt very jealous of the women there because I love the Chinese women's fashion and I love their style and they're so beautiful. I think I just looked at them and I wanted to have the clothes that they had. I eventually did buy some. The lady at the store asked me why, she was like, why? Which means like, why? And I just sweated there and pretended not to understand what she was saying. I met lots of interesting people there for sure. I worked with adults and I got to go into the countryside a few times during the spring festival with my visiting my ex's family and seeing how different of a world it is from the city. Very, very different, very different. I came back, that relationship didn't work out. I went to North Carolina, that's where I worked in the swamp with all the snakes and all the birds and Very humid and hot there you these plants called needle rush with long Well, they would stab you all day It was a hard job, but I mean, it was a special work. We didn't get paid though, which sucks. I went to, I tried to go back to China after that, But then, no, no, wait, wait, wait. No, I went to Massachusetts. I did a summer camp job. I loved my co-workers there. That was a great, great place. There were lots of mushrooms there, oddly enough, like every color of mushroom you could imagine. I don't know what it was about Massachusetts. It was filled with mushrooms. Then I tried. Yeah, then I tried to go to China, I think. And that's when COVID happened. So I couldn't. So I ended up in Sac City, Iowa, which unlike my hometown, really is like the middle of nowhere, like in corn, surrounded by corn everywhere. Sac City has the world's largest popcorn ball. It's just this nasty cupcake looking thing in this like glass shrine. It's so, it's like a fucking weird, it's old too, it's like six years old now. That's when we got hit by the derecho, which A lot of people outside the Midwest don't know about it, but it's the most destructive thunderstorm in US history, most expensive thunderstorm. It covered the entire state. It leveled everything. It was literally category four hurricane winds across the entire state moving in one direction. Like the next day, I sheltered down in a gas station because it hit while I was at work. And I came out after it was done, all the corn was flat, all the soybeans had been torn to pieces. And the strangest part was that where the wind had not touched, where the wind turbines were sitting, there were shadows of greenery that had survived. So there would be like these green shadows from the wind, the things that got spared by the wind. Half of the trees in my brother's town were destroyed. They lost, I mean, people died, it was wild. I mean, I went outside and I walked around the wind turbines, because that was my job to inspect them for dead animals. And there were five freshly dead birds around it. Well, two of them were still barely alive, but they had just gotten killed by the storm, by the lightning and the wind. So I knew if I hadn't gone inside, I might not have survived. So yeah, anyway, that was something. That's where I met, I met someone there that helped. I don't know, she was sort of like the end of my yang. Like she was a self-described butch lesbian. And I think she was the person that asked to call me, tell me I was a girl. And I started to realize how that made me feel. She taught me how to put on makeup, even though She felt she was not very good at it, but she taught me that. And boy, after that, what did I do? I worked at UPS and it sucked a lot, I think. I went to Utah, I think, after that. That was an interesting place. That's when I started to really explore my transition. I was in this place called Bullfrog, which is an ironic name because a bullfrog would not like this place. It's on Lake Powell. And this was absolutely the most remote I've ever lived. When we went to the grocery store, we would drive for three hours. And then we would drive back three hours. It was an entire day trip just to get groceries, because that's where the nearest Walmart was. So we were in the middle of this desert. I had no cell phone signal most places. I had no internet in my house. And the sky was clear almost every night and there was no light pollution so you could see the entire Milky Way and all the stars. And we would go to this big parking lot and these boaters would come in with their boats to come into Lake Powell because boaters love it. And then when they left we would be these super buzz kills that would come out and be like, okay I gotta look make sure there's no muscles on your bow and I need to see your anchor. And every time they got pissed they hated that the anchor thing. They were like, I haven't used my anchor in 18 years. And it was like, I know I gotta see it. Yeah and yeah I started wearing women's clothing. It's hard. I mean, there aren't that many opportunities to dress extravagantly in the middle of the desert, But I did anyway. And I came out to my parents when they visited, which I don't know, I'm not really sure I can say it's been the most you know, good situation about that. After that, after Utah, I did this wonderful job in Minnesota with woodpeckers that I really loved and they were all so nice. The only thing I didn't like was that there were ticks everywhere and we would get covered in ticks all the time. And so that wasn't cool. But the woodpeckers were lovely and yeah. I worked with Western Ecosystems again, or the people who looked at the wind turbines. And then I went to Maryland and I met you guys. And I did this internship that generally sucked a lot, but I got to go to DC and that was the first time I was in a room full of trans people where we were you know trans together. And that was really something I liked a lot. I really liked going to DC and getting to meet queer people. So that's, yeah, that sums it up. That's all the things I've done.
COOPER JOSLIN
That's so cool. Thank you for kind of giving me the layout, you know. I apologize because I have like several follow-up questions but they're gonna be like in like 18 different directions. So timeline wise, you started wearing women's clothes in 2015 you said?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Oh yeah back when I was in college.
I think time and activism and effort will get us a brighter future.
COOPER JOSLIN
Awesome. And then you came out in what would that have been like 2020?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
2021 is when I, I would say 2021 is when I first started like really living openly as a transgender woman.
COOPER JOSLIN
Nice. How does the coming out process feel for you? I know some people have a very like complicated relationship with like you know the yeah it's hard you know but what was it like for you?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well yeah coming out is a tricky thing because I found that there are people that you never really know what will happen when you come out to somebody. And I found, I don't know if it's something about the people from Iowa, I think people from Iowa tend to be very polite and nice to you on the surface, but they may not like you. They won't tell you necessarily. You'll have to find out from gossip or something or like seeing how they treat you or what they talk to you to other people. So I've had times where I came up to someone they were like, well you know some variation of like you know, you gotta live your dream. And then I hear later that like, oh you won't let your kids see me anymore. Okay. So it's a tricky thing. I find a lot of, I think a lot of straight or cisgender people don't understand that it can be really, I don't know, It can change everything. I mean it can change everything when you come up to somebody. And ironically the people that accept me are the ones where it has changed the least. Those are the people where like it's the same as always in a sense. But you know The people that want to forget about it, that pretend like nothing is different, they're the ones where everything is different now.
COOPER JOSLIN
I totally feel that. So this is just more of a curiosity question, but I know for some people coming out is kind of like a, like they do in phases kind of, or they, you know, at one point they identify as something different and then they come out as that, and then they later, you know, realize, oh, I feel this way. Was that like your first coming out? Like did you, you know, how did you identify previously? Did you come out as that? What was it like?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well I came out to a couple people as a cross-dresser. My very closest friends, I told them. My mother found out because, you know, she noticed that there was women's clothing in my closet. My sister, I told her because I trusted her. I think there was a point I just identified as a gender nonconforming male, or kind of a femboy, I guess, something like that. And I really, for quite a while, was resistant to the idea of being transgender. And I didn't want to tell my parents until I was absolutely sure about it, until I really felt like this is a thing that is probably not going away. And I kind of, my mom honestly wanted me to wait till my grandpa died before I came up to my wider, more of my, I've been coming up to some of my cousins. I came out to my great-aunt, she was surprisingly supportive. I think she's an open-minded person. But yeah it does evolve.
COOPER JOSLIN
Yeah. How, and you had kind of touched on this, but how are things with family now? I know coming out changes things, but if I can ask how is it going?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well I've been rather a little bit sad and disappointed about that. I knew that things would probably change, but you know I learned not long ago that my father considers himself to have failed as a father because I am transgender. And you know, again, I find it to be a very Iowa thing that I didn't find that out from him because he will not talk to me about it. My mom, she tries, I think. She's always someone that has wanted to be in the middle. I think she doesn't want to be feeling like she's in some kind of a conflict or a war, you know. And I know that she tries to support me in some ways, like we've gone shopping before for women's clothing, but at the same time I don't think she truly like understands. And I think she wants me to she wants me to understand the people that I find transphobic and to me it's like I I do understand them and they're just it's just transphobia there's you know My sister is quite good about it. She's quite supportive. My brother, I mean, he's in a sticky situation because he's married to a woman who's fundamentalist. And I don't believe he himself is really that, you know, he's just, you know, yeah, she's the one, she won't let me see her children now that I've come out. So I don't know, It sucks because I always really kind of, yeah, you know, felt a lot of pride in my family, you know. And now it sort of feels like, Whereas with my friends and even my workplaces, except me, I don't feel that I have necessarily been accepted. I mean, it's, they don't kick me out. They let me stay in their house. And I know for many trans people, they do get kicked out and they may have to suffer violence. You know. But it does make one think a lot about family and what family means and like you know the limitations of the family.
COOPER JOSLIN
Yeah it's it's difficult. I know chosen family has been something that's saved my life and you know I know it's difficult moving around so much, but have you been able to you know kind of cement any, what's your chosen family situation like? Do you have anyone you consider that?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Yes I do. My friends from college, we have a discord and we stay very tight-knit. And my best friend, I really consider him to be a brother. And I consider his wife to be a sister. And I have other friends that to me are like, they're almost like blood. And I cherish them very much. And when I was in Utah in the middle of the desert with terrible internet, I would go to great lengths just to be able to get into that discord. I would sit outside this gas station on this bench just to get good enough internet, you know. I would go to our little trailer after hours just to get the work internet to barely be able to watch you know the stream. That's how important they are to me. And they've kept me sane. I think they keep me going.
COOPER JOSLIN
That is truly a 21st century love story right there. Like you know, sitting outside the gas station like that alone is such a powerful image you know Like you can smell the gas and yeah. I love that. So let's talk a little bit about your time in the DMV. I know you had mentioned that the it was a trans writer group, right? That was your first time like in a room full of trans people. What was that like?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well I got introduced, I was sort of, I kind of was seeing somebody and they introduced me to the trans writing group. And I, well, the book club I guess was first. We started with this book and I felt really stupid at first because I'd never read trans lit before. And I read this book, I read a lot of autobiographies and I thought it was like someone's memoir. And it wasn't, it was like a rather absurd story just filled with like trans woman drama and stuff. But I thought it was real. I thought it was an actual story. So there were a lot of things that were funny in it that I was just like, oh my god, this isn't what trans people are like, is it? Like are we this mean? And then they had the author visit and I was like, oh, these aren't real characters. These are made up fictional characters. And yeah, yeah. Then they started a writing group. And I miss them a lot, actually. I do miss them a lot. I was very good friends with one of the folks that was there. And I do miss that friend quite a bit. Of course, we always knew from the very beginning I was a hobo, that it was going to happen. But yeah, I got to share some of my writing with them and it really was a big self-esteem boost because I took that creative writing class in college and I don't really feel like my work was particularly well received, I guess. And to be fair, it wasn't my best writing by any means. But it made me, I didn't write for a long time after that. And I come back here and I shared my writing with them and they quite liked it and it made me very happy. So I really liked being among them. I really felt like it was so nice to be among trans people. And that's part of the reason why when I'm looking for jobs now I'm very carefully looking for places that are close to big cities with lots of queers in them like Chicago or Minneapolis.
COOPER JOSLIN
Yeah if I can ask what's next for you? Do you have like a, you moved back to Iowa, what's up?
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well I'm trying to pivot into ecosystem restoration because it is a career Where a permanent job is within reach. I won't need to get a master's for it necessarily I tried to I interviewed for a permanent one. I almost got it. They said I was very close, but I haven't done that before, so I don't blame them. But I did get a seasonal job near Chicago. And I'm very lucky because my great aunt, who I have been talking to more lately, she owns a property there that she doesn't live in all the time. And she was like, you should live in my house. And I'm very thankful for that. So I'm gonna learn how to... It seems like this job has a lot about water pollution. I think it'll be really good. It's a woman-owned company. I'm fairly optimistic that I'm hoping after this I'll be able to get something more permanent and then you know can be a little bit less of a hobo for once.
COOPER JOSLIN
Cool. I'm glad to hear you've got, you know, something, something coming up. That sounds really exciting. I grew up in Indiana. I love that area of the country. Like, amazing pizza. I know it's controversial. I think it's great. But yeah, I, you know, we've got just a couple minutes left. I'm gonna be respectful of your time, but I did wanna give you this kind of last question as kind of a open-ended, what brings you hope? What are you looking forward to in the future for trans people, for you personally? Like what, this is just kind of a space for you to get up on a soapbox if you want, or just tell a fun story, whatever you're vibing with.
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well there are a few things that give me hope, and I will say it's very frightening now, it's very, very scary. And the younger generation gives me hope. You know, I find young people can be very accepting. And history, I would say, gives me hope. Because I read a book that I was quite fond of called Gay New York, which at the time I think was written before there was much discourse about trans people, but there were people in the book that were referred to as homosexuals that I was like, you're wearing makeup, and you're calling your friends your sisters, and you're going by female pronouns. There's some transness there. And I find that they were so resilient. And they built this culture with each other, and they found each other. And at times it was very bad for them, you know, obviously. They had to deal with a lot, but there were real moments of power from them. And I think that that strength gives me hope that like, you know, with things like Stonewall, like they spent a lot of time pushing us around, but you can't, I don't know. I just, I think that we're a strong people, and I think there's a lot of beauty in our, what we are, you know. I think I can get off of that. And we're together now, you know, we have a flag, you know. I think that I do hope, And I know there's a lot of scary developments right now, and very bad things have happened to us before, of course. You know, I mean like the Holocaust, obviously that happened in Germany. But I do think, I think time and activism and effort will get us a brighter future.
COOPER JOSLIN
Yeah I love that. I love hearing you know different trans people's like sense of hope and it just it's beautiful and thank you so much for for ending on that note. That's perfect. And thank you again for doing this interview with me. I didn't really have the chance to express this when we met in person that one time, but your vibes are immaculate. Like you are such a kind and sweet person and thank you so much for taking this time with me.
ROBERTA D'CAMP
Well I'm glad I could meet you and I really like what you're doing too. I'm very appreciative of the opportunity for this. So yeah, you guys have got something very special going on over there.
COOPER JOSLIN
Thank you and we are so grateful to have had you as a part of it for it, even though it was a short time, it was, it's very nice. So thank you.
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